"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Si tuviese que escoger una razón principal por la que me gusta, me ilusiona y me satisface Elfman es por su paleta de colores musicales y su habilidad para el claroscuro en la línea de un Herrmann. Siempre ofrece pinceladas novedosas. Fusiona admirablemente orquesta y sinteizadores, el uso de voces o coros nunca cae en la banalidad o denota estar metido con calzador, y muestra gran sabiduría en el temario musical clásico.
Su rostro casi de sátiro o duende revoltoso ya de por sí anticipa una especie de predisposición a esperar algo "diferente" de lo establecido.
Yo lo veo como un Peter Pan pelirrojo, de "sesenta y..." ya, que ha sabido evolucionar con el paso de los tiempos pero que ni ha perdido ese aura de niño travieso y curioso, personificado en un sentido del humor dinamitador y genial con arrebatos de sana locura, habiéndose convertido en todo un señor respetable en la comunidad. Y en unos años, cuando ya sea anciano, se le venerará como a un John Williams. Aquí en esta parcela "adulta" se desarrollaría más eficientemente su cuerpo musical lánguido, minimalista e incluso tóxico ("Acción civil", "Un plan sencillo").
Como cantante y letrista ya está todo dicho, lo que proyecta su imagen camaleónica (un bicho así como de pinta cómica que le va como anillo al dedo y que refuerza su adaptabilidad a cualquier tipo de propuesta). Hace de todo y lo hace bien, con carisma y pundonor.
Elfman es Elfman. Detrás de esta perogrullada hago valer que ha hecho historia desde hace mucho tiempo sin detener su rodaje a la hora de abordar nuevas posibilidades. Es único. De cara al aficionado, es un seguro de vida.
Ahora, a esperar que alguien reedite "Midnight Run", "Dick Tracy" y "The Frighteners", todas ellas pertenecientes a su etapa de advenimiento y consagración.
¿Mi favorita?Es que hay mucho donde elegir. Durante un tiempo estuve obsesionado con "Sleepy Hollow", de ahí salté a "Sommersby", luego "Batman Returns", y "The Wolfman", y...y...y etc.
Hay algunas sobre las que he pasado un poco de puntillas, pero son las menos.
Dick Tracy merece una expansión... vergonzosa media hora, cuando hay casi 100 minutos de música.
Pues coincidimos plenamente. Un maestro, ya, a estas alturas, y con estilo propio y personal que dados los tiempos que corren ya es mucho. (una muestra de esto más abajo) Por cierto, mi fragmento favorito de Batman que NO está incluido en el álbum original del 89, si en la expansión de La-la-land. Te pone los pelos de punta:
You’ve done action films before, but in terms of the modern, ultra-explosive, big-budget action films, the kind defined by the CON-AIR or THE ROCK type of emotional feel, how did you find this project?
I try to stay as far away from that as possible! That’s a feel and a style that I have no desire to get anywhere close to.
¡Toma pullita!
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Última edición por Branagh/Doyle; 13/07/2016 a las 00:38
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Otras, olvidaba The Wolfman, sublime toda ella.
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"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Pues eso, esperemos que haya sido "sólo" eso.
Eso es lo que yo quería expresar ayer al hablar de "estilo más o menos minimalista" Ojalá yo pudiera expresarse así.
Sí ese reencuentro con Raimi parece marcar una vuelta a los temás digamos "mas tarareables". Sommerrsby me parece una delicia y sí, ese Woodstock para Lee, es breve pero de guitarreo interesante.
Es verdad que los dos Pee Wees beben de Rota, pero pasado como dices por su filltro. Algo que también se puede dedir de las influencias hermannianas en otros trabajos. Marte ataca me parece otra cumbre de su carrera donde tal vez la influencia hermannina se vuelve irónica.
Yo diría que es mi obra favorita de Elfman, si sólo puediera elegir una.
Saludos
Q: "I'm your new quartermaster"
007: "You must be joking"
_______________________
CLAUDIO: "Lady, as you are mine, I am yours"
_______________________
EISENSTEIN: "I'm a boxer for the freedom of the cinematic expression" -"I'm a scientific dilettante with encyclopedic interests"
Q: "I'm your new quartermaster"
007: "You must be joking"
_______________________
CLAUDIO: "Lady, as you are mine, I am yours"
_______________________
EISENSTEIN: "I'm a boxer for the freedom of the cinematic expression" -"I'm a scientific dilettante with encyclopedic interests"
Hombre es que gran parte del score de Spidey 2 se vio sustituido (en el film), por John Debney, y Chris Young (sólo en la secuencia del tren, el track modificado procedente de Hellraiser 2). Luego Elfman se las ingenió para editar un CD sólo con su música y no agradeció a Raimi en las notas.
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"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
John Debney?? pensaba que era Deborah Lurie.
Chris Young tambien debio colaborar en el experimento de Octopus porque el tema era clavado a Species
Tripley, yo no nací sabiendo, no te preocupes por cómo te expresas que se te entendió perfectamente.
Por cierto, Elfman dice que está seguro de que en su epitafio pondrá: el tipo que escribió el tema de los simpsons.
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Otto, al igual que le he dicho a Branagh/Doyle, ya me gustarí amí poder comentar así lo que pienso de los compositores y bandas sonoras.
totalmente de acuerdo
Sí, es verdad que Elfman ha sadio mantener ese perfil de enfant terrible pese a la edad y el reconocimiento más "académico", pese a que precisamente la Academia le ninguneó durante años desde la exlosión musical que supuso su Batman o esa maravilla que es Pesadilla antes de Navidad.
Totalmente de acuerdo. Por esom, porque Elfman es Elfman, pese a que según que días pueda pensar que su etapa más reciente no tiene la misma fuerza orquestal que trabajos anteriores, lo veo como eso, una constante evolución. Por lo menos en ese sentido Elfman no me parece un pastiche de sí mismo.
Yo ya me he mojado mencionando Batman vuelve
Spoiler:
Saludos
Q: "I'm your new quartermaster"
007: "You must be joking"
_______________________
CLAUDIO: "Lady, as you are mine, I am yours"
_______________________
EISENSTEIN: "I'm a boxer for the freedom of the cinematic expression" -"I'm a scientific dilettante with encyclopedic interests"
Si, aquello era sospechoso. Debió gustarle en cualquier caso, porque se agenció a Young para la 3.
John Debney, si. Esto tengo yo en mis notas sobre la música de la peli, si estoy equivocado dímelo.![]()
Steve Bartek (additional music)
John Debney (additional music)
Danny Elfman
Christopher Young (additional music)
Joseph LoDuca (uncredited) (additional music)
De todas maneras Lurie no era colaboradora de Elfman, ¿Bud? Si el y Raimi acabaron peleados...
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Q: "I'm your new quartermaster"
007: "You must be joking"
_______________________
CLAUDIO: "Lady, as you are mine, I am yours"
_______________________
EISENSTEIN: "I'm a boxer for the freedom of the cinematic expression" -"I'm a scientific dilettante with encyclopedic interests"
aun asi circula por ahi un complete con temas de Lurie, por eso lo digo.
aqui consta como Additional music tambien:
http://www.soundtrack.net/person/deborah-lurie/
No lo sabía compañero. Vaya follón.... ¿hay manera de saber exactamente quién hizo qué?
¿Y Elfman no se "enfado" con Lurie? Joer, vaya culebrón.
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"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
En la 2 debio hacer alguna cosa muy puntual y breve, en la 3 desarrollo mas lo que era los love theme
Entrevista:
http://www.filmzene.net/read.php?u=i...e_english.html
Muchas gracias, Bud. Muy interesante. Estaría bien saber que cosa hizo cada compositor exactamente en Spider-Man 2, por tenerlo estructurado.
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"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
"And at the instant he knew, he ceased to know"
Estaba mirando hace un rato sobre la banda sonora de Bernstein para Cazafantasmas, y me sorprende que en plano año 2016 sigamos igual. Sacaron aquella edición de Varese Club limitada que por fin traía el Score bien... pero anda incomprable, por supuesto
Es de esas cosas que uno pensaría que tendría una edición "normal" a buen precio, pero no.
Es de esos titulos que era ya ridiculo sacar tan poca tirada en su epoca. Intrada y Lalaland siempre han sido mas consecuentes con sus reissues pero veo que Varese actua con puño de hierro sacando mucho mas a cuentagotas nuevas tiradas o directamente tenernos años y años con la incertidumbre.
Yo espero que Varese recapacite y la reedite aprovechando el estreno del remake.
Y que alguien se acuerde del score de Edelman para la segunda parte porque estoy seguro que es un must have para gran parte de los coleccionistas.
Os dejo la carta abierta que Danny Elfman publicó en 1993, harto de las acusaciones de que era un fraude y en realidad no escribía su propia música (porque no sabía debido a su falta de formación).
An Open Letter from Danny Elfman
from Keyboard Magazine, March 1993
Bodies litter the musical battleground, where the forces of innovation engage the armies of tradition time and time again. The latest skirmish pitted Danny Elfman, the self-taught author of the scores to Batman, Midnight run, Pee-wee's big adventure, and Beetlejuice, against Micah D. Rubenstein, a theory and composition teacher at Ohio's Kenyon College. Elfman, in his Oct '89 Keyboard interview confessed to having had only a skimpy musical education; most of his savvy as a performer and composer stems from onstage experience as leader of a 12-piece musical/theatrical troupe, the Mystic Knights of the Oingo Boingo. This admission outraged Rubenstein, whose subsequent letter in our Jan.'90 issue accused us and Elfman of "glorifying musical ignorance. . . . In the complex world of film and orchestral music, there are no shortcuts. If you can't do it yourself, you have to have the money to hire competent, conservatory-trained people such as (orchestrator) Steve Bartek or (conductor) Shirley Walker,", whose contributions to the Batman sessions were discussed at length in our Elfman interview.
Our special issue on film scoring was well underway when Elfman called us and asked if he could submit a response to Rubenstein's letter. Though much of what he wanted to say boiled down to a refutation of Rubenstein's allegations about his background, Elfman also wanted to make broader points about the changing dynamics of the film industry and the new standards of excellence being pursued by today's soundtrack composers. His comments fit in so well with this month's focus that we decided to give him this page as his forum.
"Although I'm quite used to being attacked by "knowledgeable" people in the music profession, and I rarely find it worth my time to take these attacks seriously, I'm compelled to respond to Micah Rubenstein's absurd and misinformed letter about my musical abilities (or lack thereof).
I have chosen to defend myself this time not only because of the personal viciousness and many inaccuracies of his comments, but more importantly because of the frightening musical elitism that they represent.
As well as offering a personal defense, I wish to speak on behalf of the many musicians, composers, and arrangers who lack formal education, yet persist in an extremely difficult craft with nothing more than some raw talent and a belief in their abilities.
The art of film composition is something I happen to take very seriously. While I would never refer to myself as a wunderkind or a genius of any kind, Mr. Rubestein, your comparison of a film music composer to Mozart is even more pointless.
Film composition is a unique art with unique requirements. It is not the same as writing a symphony-something I've never professed to be able to do. Film music is written for no other reason than to accentuate the images on the screen, to underline the emotions of the characters, and hopefully, when we're lucky, to help breathe life into a two-dimensional medium. A film score is not "pure music," and should be judged on its dramatic, emotional, and/or visually enhancing merits.
There isn't any one "correct" way to score a film. Each film is a world unto itself, with its own unique strengths and weaknesses which must be addressed.
While one film may, in fact, call for a full-blown "symphonic" approach, synthesizers may be more appropriate for another. The next may require nothing more than a banjo and accordion duet.
It is an art that requires you to constantly invent creative and imaginative solutions to numerous restrictions and obstacles... and doing it fast.
On the film Batman, as with many films, there were about six weeks to compose more than 70 minutes of accurately timed and often complex orchestral music. Add on top of this any number of changes and rewrites due to last-minute film cuts anu/or conceptual shifts, and the total amount of music can increase dramatically.
Because of this, most composers in Hollywood—yes, even the famous conservatory-trained ones—use orchestrators, music editors, and occasionally conductors to assist them in focusing their creative energy where it will do the most good. The complexity of the task on a huge, high-pressure score can be mind-boggling, I assure you.
On Batman, as on many films, there was a team effort to pull it all together on time, and I'm fortunate to have very talented people on my team. Yes, my orchestrator, Steve Bartek, is very gifted, and did a great job, as did my conductor, Shirley Walker, and the music editor, Bob Badami. Their help was invaluable to me, especially on a difficult job like Batman.
Whether I achieved good, bad, or mediocre results with the music is not the issue here. As with any art, that's a subjective point which will always be up for lively debate and scrutiny. But, having worked my ass off for 12 to 14 hours a day, seven days a week, for a month and a half to write that score and yes, you dumb fuck, I actually wrote it down-I will not sit back passively and allow myself to be discredited for the work I did by an idiot who mistakenly thinks that I lazily hire people to do it for me, or that only a conservatory can produce a real film composer.
I am self-taught, and although that's not something I'm proud of, neither am I ashamed of it. While you, Mr. Rubenstein are incorrect in stating that I studied with Christopher Young or anyone else, you are absolutely presumptuous in assuming that Mr. Bartek and Ms. Walker are conservatory-trained. In fact, Mr. Bartek never attended a conservatory, and Ms. Walker, who in addition to being a great conductor and orchestrator is a fine composer in her own right, never finished college, and considers herself to be primarily self-taught as well.
Furthermore, and more to the point, composers, like writers, painters, or film directors, are able to create their art from their instincts, their intuition—their "soul," for lack of a better word—something that has never been easily taught. Imagination, our most valuable tool, is not, unfortunately, conferred by a degree.
A musical education, although I never had one, is something for which I have great respect. It can, I'm sure, be a wonderful thing, and provide all kinds of invaluable tools with which to work. It is not, however, the only way to acquire tools, or to learn.
I would guess that it wouldn't surprise you terribly to find out that a respected author may not have had six years of formal English literature, but learned by doing-that is, by sitting down at a typewriter and writing, day after day.
Certainly, you must be aware that there are many film directors—Batman's Tim Burton, for one example—who never attended any film school. Why, then, is it so hard to accept the possibility that someone who works hard can learn to write film music from hands-on experience?
In the past five years, I've had the good fortune of being able to write, and have performed, more than 600 minutes of orchestra music. This probably involved writing some where in the neighborhood of 20,000 bars of music. I know I'm not the greatest film composer in the land—something that I couldn't care less about—and I'm more than aware of my many shortcomings. But after all this, I have learned just a few little things—perhaps even a thing or two not taught in your illustrious music class.
I will admit to getting tongue twisted and saying some pretty incomprehensible things more than once in my Keyboard interview. But I feel that my work, of which I'm proud, speaks for me much better than I can.
Finally, I hope there are others out there who can benefit from my experience—other compulsive self-taught artists who feel driven to test their abilities beyond what anal, closed-minded, self-protective "teachers" like yourself try to convince them they cannot do without their degrees.
—Danny Elfman
Graduate, with honors, American College of Hard Knocks
Post-graduate studies, Nose to the Grindstone University"
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Última edición por Branagh/Doyle; 13/07/2016 a las 20:20
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Batman Returns, Rooftops
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Última edición por Branagh/Doyle; 13/07/2016 a las 23:10
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.
Gracias, TripleyIntento suplir carencias en cuanto a conocimientos profundos por sentido común e intuición con una pizca de imaginación. Tú sabes expresarte como un libro abierto como casi nadie, claro, conciso y con una honestidad desarmante. Supongo que cada uno posee una voz propia para abordar cada tema.
A veces he tenido la impresión de que ha dado a la industria más de lo que ha recibido en cuestión de grandes honores materializados en algo sólido. Un poco como a Tim durante su primera década, que permaneció en una especie de limbo casi exclusivo para él solito a medio camino entre el cine mainstream "más serio-académico" del momento y el frikismo raro pero pujante de autor muy personal e interesante. Una especie de "te queremos y apreciamos pero no es tu momento aún". Ahora esa "celda" dorada en la que estaban en custodia es una reliquia del pasado ante la renovación de los cánones cinematográficos y se encuentran plenamente integrados, tanto que hasta pasan ligeramente desapercibidos.Sí, es verdad que Elfman ha sadio mantener ese perfil de enfant terrible pese a la edad y el reconocimiento más "académico", pese a que precisamente la Academia le ninguneó durante años desde la exlosión musical que supuso su Batman o esa maravilla que es Pesadilla antes de Navidad.
Y a pesar de ello, se me hace muy raro imaginármeles a ambos recibiendo un Oscar honorífico dentro de 12-15 años. No pegan en ese ambiente tan "de postín"
Y yo cerca ando. Lo que sí puedo decir es que Batman Returns es de los trabajos recuperados en edición expandida que más me han deslumbrado respecto al álbum original, y he escuchado unos cuantos. Y atisbo uan riquza de matices mayor que en la nominal Batman.Yo ya me he mojado mencionando Batman vuelve
Spoiler:
Saludos
Este episodio me retrotrae a otro anterior cronológicamente y que encadena con lo que dije antes del "desubicado pendiente por ubicar". Acontece además durante uno de sus primeros grandes logros, Bitelchús (otra obra maestra más) y destaca por la colisión que tuvo frente a la jerarquía de los viejos tiempos que aún quedaba: Lionel Newman, entonces en la MGM tras su salida del departamento musical de Fox, era quien se encargaba de la ejecución de la orquesta, y ante las diferencias de criterio musical que presentaba con Elfman patentes ya desde los Main Titles, cuyo resultado distaba de los ansiados por el recién llegado, fue reemplazado por William Ross (Harry Potter 2), más joven y relacionado con las nuevas tendencias musicales, para obtener una ejecución orquestal más cercana a la intención del compositor.
A partir de ese episodio, Newman llegó a pensar que la carrera de Elfman iba atener poco futuro e incluso llegó a mofarse con sutileza de él. Como falleció uno-dos años después, no llegó a presenciar el despegue de la carrera del loco del pelo rojo (y que conste que el hermano menor de Alfred debía tener un carácter quisquilloso y un humor un tanto avinagrado puesto que no fue el único compositor que recibió algunos de sus dardos)
Muchas gracias Otto por los comentarios. No es la primera vez que se dice que tengo un estilo claro y conciso, cuando yo tengo la sensación de que muchas veces escribo de forma poco clara y que tiendo a crear frases muy aparatosas (¿influecia de James y Benet?), pero bueno, que parece má una sensación mía.
Estoy muy de acuerdo, tanto elfman como Burton no me parece uqe hayan sido muy valorados, sobre todo respecto a la influencia palpaple que tuvo su Batman. Y sí habrái que ver si ganan alguna vez el OScar. Elfman, aunque es verdad que no pegue mucho por ahí, par los últimos oscar compuso el tema que sonaba durante la entrega de premios.
Saludos
Q: "I'm your new quartermaster"
007: "You must be joking"
_______________________
CLAUDIO: "Lady, as you are mine, I am yours"
_______________________
EISENSTEIN: "I'm a boxer for the freedom of the cinematic expression" -"I'm a scientific dilettante with encyclopedic interests"
MIK... va, prueba esto y si te gusta lánzate. Te va a venir bien.
Te dejo el tracklist para que te orientes:
00:00_____19. Violin Romance (5 mins 4 secs.)
05:04_____01. Kabuki Attack (6 mins 48 secs.)
11:53_____02. Brother's Fight (2 mins 19 secs.)
14:13_____03. Niece! (3 mins. 14 secs.)
17:27_____04. Too Late a Week (1 min. 8 secs.)
18:35_____05. The Forest of Arden (4 mins. 13 secs.)
22:45_____06. Roynish Clown (2 mins. 38 secs.)
25:27_____07. Under the Greenwood Tree (Vocal) (2 mins 36 secs)
28:04_____08. Eat No More (2 mins. 5 secs.)
30:09_____09. Blow Blow (Vocal) (2 mins 25 secs)
32:34_____10. Thy Brother (3 mins. 57 secs.)
36:32_____11. Trip Audrey (1 min. 26 secs.)
37:58_____12. Fake Wedding (2 mins. 35 secs.)
40:33_____13. Lion Attack (3 mins. 36 secs.)
44:10_____14. Celia & Oliver (1 min. 46 secs.)
45:57_____15. I Love Aliena (2 mins 5 secs)
48:03_____16. Tomorrow (3 mins 16 secs)
51:19_____17. Weddings (5 mins. 16 secs.)
56:36_____18. A Lover & His Lass (Vocal) (2 mins 51 secs)
"There’s this misconception these days that a thematic score means a dated-sounding score. This, of course, is a cop out. There’s no reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The art of composing modern scores is the having the skill set to keep motifs alive while being relevant. But too many times, newer composers have no idea what fully developed themes are because they grew up on scores that are nothing more than ostinatos and “buahs.”
John Ottman.